Curse

TiC · Jun 02, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Because I can't.

For the 5th day in a row, I've sat in tombs for over a hour waiting, just to find an organized group. Now by organized, I mean, at least able to make it to the HoH, having a good group build, all able to *speak* on vent/ts, etc. I finally get a group, which has maybe 3-5 players already, and find myself having to wait even longer for the group to find additional experienced players. Fine. Then, the game actually starts, and we wind up losing the first match, usually more than once. Switch up builds, swap a player or two, then rinse and repeat. This has happened every single day for the past week or so.

It's really starting to get on my nerves, because I only play for a couple of hours whenever I can, and can't join a PvP guild because of the massive time requirements most of the skilled ones force upon you prior to joining. So by playing unguilded, I"m essentially wasting time, having a nice group discussion on vent/ts, then wasting more time, then calling it a night, day after day.

Is there something I'm missing, or has it truly reached a point where you have to join a guild to participate in the tombs on a competitive level? Because personally, I don't think the PUG situation in tombs could get any worse.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 02, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Generally, guild groups win HoH battles. They are more organized and have developed deeper strategies... So I doubt many PUGs can compete

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 02, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Currently... you have no hope for improvement... your best chance? somehow join some PvP loving guild that would choose you to be in the tomb 8 players... That is right, even if you do join a guild... chances are that you might still find yourself excluded even if you have godly skills... why? they likely to want to play with their "closer" guild mate instead of you obviously. Yes, it does sux... You going to need some luck.

I am thinking to start a non-guild based tomb team... where anyone can come to do tomb at an arranged time. Perhaps we have some luck together one day

ManadartheHealer · Jun 02, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

I am thinking to start a non-guild based tomb team... where anyone can come to do tomb at an arranged time. Perhaps we have some luck together one day

I salute you my good sir!

Sarus · Jun 02, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Is there something I'm missing, or has it truly reached a point where you have to join a guild to participate in the tombs on a competitive level? Because personally, I don't think the PUG situation in tombs could get any worse.

Unfortunately that seems to be the trend. In some ways though it does speak to the level of cooperation required for a team to be competitive in tombs. Even many of the PUG's you see winning are actually a bunch of people from some of the better guilds using their smurf guild tags. Your best bet is to start getting names of people when you join a PUG and see if you can't get a regular group together.

Quote:

I am thinking to start a non-guild based tomb team... where anyone can come to do tomb at an arranged time. Perhaps we have some luck together one day

That sounds like a cool idea. I look forward to the day that the top guilds actually get a little nervous before facing off against a PUG unlike the current situation where we chalk up a victory before the match even starts.

MasterDinadan · Jun 02, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

That's an unavoiable problem with team based games that reward teamwork...
Groups with better teamwork do better, and people that actually know each other have better teamwork.
You just have to figure out how you can get to know more people and guilds are great for that.
Don't think that any guild containing members worthy of PVPing with has harsh time requirements. I'm sure you can find a guild with good players that don't care if you don't play 24/7. It's not like it does them any harm to have you in the guild even if you aren't always online.

Jab · Jun 02, 2005, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I'm sorta in a guild , but since no one is on I do pug groups for hoh, and it's not very pretty. I can win the first match easily, but I have never made it past round 2.

sama · Jun 02, 2005, 10:48 AM // 10:48

pugs can do great! just depends on where the players of that pug come from =)

seriously tho...no competition atm cuz a handful of guilds and thus a handful of players ownz all...wonder why that is...

LathalDraugr · Jun 02, 2005, 11:15 AM // 11:15

I'd been playing PvE mostly but wanted to start playing PvP and ran into exactly the same problem. HoH is impossible to be competitive in unless you already have a good team and to get a good team you have to have proven that you're a good player which you can't do without a good team. The only way that I can see that you have a chance of getting a decent game in the HoH is to join or start a guild.

Right now it's just too hard to get experience at the tombs unless you happen to land in a decent PUG and even then there's usually one or two players who either aren't interested in playing well or just don't have enough knowledge or skill to compete effectively against other players. Most of the time it's hard enough to get people to even target properly much less use any actual teamwork.

The worst part is thanks to the random nature of PUGs it's quite hard just to improve your own play since the standard tactic seems to be rush the enemy, flame everyone else and then quit meaning there's no real opportunity to improve your own tactics or build.

john little · Jun 02, 2005, 12:07 PM // 12:07

To be honest, i don't really think there is anything *wrong*, even if with the various PUG's I haven't got into HoH i'm still having fun. The only thing i'd like to see is some form of reward at the end of each battle, it can be frustrating to know that after 20mins winning a battle with a 7 man team (some one always disconnects) you aren't going to get anything out of it (especially when you consider how much gold/items you could have collected in PvE).

TiC · Jun 02, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Well, you get fame after some of the later battles, but that's about it I guess, in terms of reward.

Ironically enough, last night I actually managed to find a nice skilled team to go into the tombs with, and we had a solid flawless run to the HoH, which was a welcomed change. Once there, we got destroyed by a rather interesting build that a pretty good guild was using - first time I've gotten owned so bad by rangers in awhile. The loss itself was fine with me, because not only did we get as far as we did, but we played well getting there. That's really all I want out of a PUG group, and last night, it willingly kept me up till almost 3 in the morning.

The only thing that worries me, is once again finding that group with the capacity to coordinate in the same manner. I love those games where everything just clicks - the healers are all on par, solid target calling, quick takedowns, etc. A lot of you guildies take that stuff for granted, but with PUGs, it's more of a blessing than anything else.

I've also been wanting to attempt a few strats I've thought up, but haven't found anyone willing to give something new a try. I guess I'm really gonna need that guild afterall. Or you never know, maybe things will miraculously change in the coming weeks

Perishiko ReLLiK · Jun 02, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Well, i dont use guild members to do it... i find plenty of groups where people dont care about things such as that, or the ts/vent crap...

Just gotta look around a bit... heh ^.^

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

HoH can be seen as a catered success, because it forces you to either evolve in skill, or just be stuck getting owned at underworld. The problem with most casual gamers is that most of them aren't willing to commit some time and effort to get better while alot of "hardcore" gamers do. This makes the casual gamers go "wtf?".

The problem isn't Tombs. Tombs was suppose to be prestigeous in a sense, it is a 24/7 online tournament. Tournaments are not suppose to be for the weak of heart. If your lucky you'll make it past the preliminaries, and sometimes, you might win if everyone else is asleep. But the point of tombs is at that point, your group is the best. You play any other ladder game like starcraft, warcraft, counterstrike, halo, do you see people whining that they aren't on the ladder or that the competition is too hard?

No, because 1. Those games can be self-sufficient. 2. People use tombs as their main PVP course, because GvG seems to have it's own problems ( Though I haven't played it yet :P ), and Arena like I've previously posted before, has not yet the incentives to cater to the casual crowd. No one cares about arena except for half-baked fun. Not enough choices, not enough incentives, not enough everything. The whole point is that Arena is for the majority of the casual players, and if they decide to test their mettle, they go to tombs or gvg, not spend hours going "LFG I HAVE VENT/TS 12 FAME AIR ELE".

The game takes on a decline because of the grind for hardcore players, but more notably because the casual crowd has no incentives to play. Arena has no rewards, not even points. A score chart, one that displays kills, healing rates, rez, etc etc, can help out alot. Both parties are now suffering because of problems, and because Anet isn't addressing them fast enough, though whether or not that is their fault is completely their own matter and not up to us to judge for the time being.

I think the most annoying thing about tombs for casual groups is the burial mounds and huge ffas. The FFA concept is nice, but it shouldn't be used so much times. I rather see more tombs scenarios, ones that promote smaller scale fights, and more varied objectives. CTF/KOTH/FFA/1v1 are the only game modes of tombs right now, and their not balanced at all. You want more scenarios and such, and a less predictable pattern.

Trenchsoul · Jun 02, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I wish they would seperate all guild teams from pickup groups. It takes entirely too much effort to get a pickup group going, a lot more than it should. If they split up players so that the all guild teams just fought each other, which would probably result in better game play for them anyway, all the fat would be cut out and each team should be a challenge to defeat instead of rolling over them 40 seconds. Pickup groups would actually be able to PvP competitively as well since they'd be fighting against other teams of their skill level. There really needs to be some way to split up players of varying skill.

Ensign · Jun 02, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

You mean like giving the high fame teams byes in the tournament so that we don't have to waste an hour or so smashing random pugs before we get to real competition? So that the random PUGs get to slog it out in the underworld with each other, with only the best of the PUGs making it to the upper tier maps to face guild teams?

Can't argue with that.

Peace,
-CxE

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You mean like giving the high fame teams byes in the tournament so that we don't have to waste an hour or so smashing random pugs before we get to real competition? So that the random PUGs get to slog it out in the underworld with each other, with only the best of the PUGs making it to the upper tier maps to face guild teams?

Can't argue with that.

Peace,
-CxE

Concept is nice, but not all guilds are good enogh to face the upper tier competition. Any suggestions on how to filter and such?

Sarus · Jun 02, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Concept is nice, but not all guilds are good enogh to face the upper tier competition. Any suggestions on how to filter and such?

I think ensign meant high fame guild teams.

Ensign · Jun 02, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Or non guild teams, since there's a lot of mixing and matching and ringing going on (see: the unofficial Fianna vent guild). Just look at the aggregate fame of a team, and if it's greater than a certain level just drop 'em straight into Dark Chambers or something.

Peace,
-CxE

Ordas · Jun 02, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Or non guild teams, since there's a lot of mixing and matching and ringing going on (see: the unofficial Fianna vent guild). Just look at the aggregate fame of a team, and if it's greater than a certain level just drop 'em straight into Dark Chambers or something.

Peace,
-CxE

I'm not sure I agree with this idea... giving players "special privledges". I saw in another forum someone mentioned that instead of just letting "high fame" guys skip everything outright, simply give them a little priority to "fill in the blank spots" in the tournament. That might be a little better, but I'm nor sure.

Although, on the flip side, it might be ok, because you can think of it as the high fame guys "earning" a pass to the HoH.

I dunno, it just sort of rubs me the wrong way... Soon people will complain of the "grind" they need to go through to get fame...
or PvE'ers will complain that PvPers are getting special treatment because of what they like to do (sound familiar to the PvP vs PvE Elites and Runes issue anyone?)

kukuman · Jun 02, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiC

Because I can't.

Neither can I. In about a week of playing Tombs pretty much exclusively, I've managed to get a whopping 2 Fame. One group I was in made it to Hall of Heroes (skipping a few rounds), where we fought against Idiot Savants and effectively prevented them from winning. That's the only highlight of the week. The rest of the time has been spent losing to superior teams that actually call targets and use focus fire, or one-trick-pony air ele teams.

My guild doesn't have enough ascended players to make a team either. Plus, we're not nearly as hardcore as the frequent HoH winners.